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Scott Santens: Universal Basic Income

Discussion in 'THC+ Episodes' started by enjoypolo, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. enjoypolo

    enjoypolo Well-Known Member

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    Andrew Yang at SXSW 2019 on Automation of labour and UBI

    So it's official, Andrew Yang has reached the required 65,000 individual donations to make it on the debate stage. Wow.

    I was more of a Tulsi Gabbard person, seeing that she has her eyes on the MIC (and she had the balls, as Yang did, to go on the JRE).
    I just don't know her clear goals on how to achieve that de-militarization, as opposed to Yang who has three, clearly outlined policies that focus on fixing the bigger puzzle (macro).

    I get asked sometimes, why I care about US politics so much although I'm not a resident, nor a citizen, and there are many reasons, but I think it boils down to 1) Influence on the worldwide ripple-effect. 2) I hate to say it, but it still feels like freedom country (though for how long I do not know..) with huge caveats.

    Links:
    Yang 2020 Policies: https://www.yang2020.com/policies/
     
    #101 enjoypolo, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  2. rjens57

    rjens57 New Member

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    From where I sit here’s what I see in this volley of convictions. On one side is the guy that is so bent on demonizing government that he not only fails to acknowledge that the very big big corporations are responsible for standardizing corruption in government, he champions for them. My guess from listening to others with similar convictions is they defend corporations (and now corrupt capitalism) out of their own hopes for the American Dream. To criticize any business seems counterintuitive to personal aspirations. Therefore, all blame for non-achievement is laid upon the government alone. Also noted is he makes a point of how well he lives in our first world country. This is to show an absense of class envy which could be construed as criticism of business.

    On the other hand are the UBI supporters who remind me of the ideologists of the ‘60’s. They talk about everything that’s right about UBI and how it can cure the destitution of the poor and narrow the economic gap. They explain that the money will come from our proxy robots but fail to aknowledge the pitfalls of UBI under the control of corrupt mega corporations and government.

    I think "pitfalls" is a gross understatement. There is no way in hell corporations are going to glibly give up profits made from the payroll windfall. They must protect their stockholders after all. And there won’t be enough jobs for people to extract the taxes needed to support UBI.

    There’s no doubt that full automation is coming. Good bye American Dream. Hello Agenda 21. My predictions, if you will.

    • With a drastically reduced population, UBI will be sustainable; substantially more cost effective than the current costs of payroll. They’ve likely already figured out how much to stipend out in order to support consumerism. UBI will bring contentment to the people while there will still be enough social issues to maintain polarization.

    • Entepreneurship will be dead, at least to the extent of it creating new millionaires. I’m sure the old money families are not happy about the self-creation of Bill Gates, Bezos, and more recently, that facebook kid, what’s his name. They have no sense of decor nor manners, very uppity, don’t you know.

    • Small businesses will fail. New start ups will be few. Automation will be too expenive to purchase and they won’t be able to compete without it and/or there will be the lack of a competently trained work force simply due to the reduced population.

    I wish I could be more optimistic. Hopefully 3rd generation UBI’s (with faded memories) will live in relative contentment and child trafficking will be much harder to pull off. Hopefully the UBI system will be the chosen option when one imagines what could happen instead. Think AI.

    The good news: Absolutely nothing is permanent.
     
  3. sirujux

    sirujux Active Member

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    I don't know how agenda 21 would work since everyone knows that the us is falling apart and if all the sudden something happens where everything is ok then that would seem very suspicious. then maybe there will be two types of people in the people that are not apart of the system and the people who are. its not impossible to make communities that are off grid.
     
  4. enjoypolo

    enjoypolo Well-Known Member

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    While I agree you concerns are valid, You can’t have a topic on UBI without mentionong Andrew Yang, the US 2020 candidate. He’s brought more attention in one (two?) years of campaigning for UBI as his platform, than all the research and experiments combined.

    He also has a detailed plan on how to introduce it, calling it the Freedom Dividend. Will it work? Only time will tell.

    https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/
     
  5. rjens57

    rjens57 New Member

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    With Agenda 21 nothing will be ok so no worries about suspicions. The survivors will know what happened but probably not the truth of how or why.

    There’s one thing you need to be aware of regarding Agenda 21. If all goes as planned, the population will be relegated to live within the confines of densely populated designated areas. They’ve already launched their efforts on acclimating the public to this aspect of the plan via "sustainable cities", presenting them as the solution to urban sprawl. Although it’s not yet on most people’s radar, the current trend for tiny houses comes to mind. Some areas will be completely off limits and the use of the rest of the land will be strictly controlled. I can’t imagine anyone being allowed to go off grid. I’ve heard of pockets of communities where local government has made generating one’s own electricity illegal. But I haven’t researched this so consider it hearsay. But I do know there are corporations already intending to take control of water, saying it’s not a basic right. Nestlé is in the forefront of this campaign.
     
  6. rjens57

    rjens57 New Member

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    That’s all well and good but this still doesn’t address how can it possibly be implemented in it’s intended form within the current corrupt system? Whether he knows it or not, it’s possible Mr. Yang is being used as the front man to sell UBI to the public and then what actually gets rolled out has very little to do with freedom. In fact, calling it the Freedom Dividend gives me a chill in light of the fact that the names of bills presented to Congress are usually a complete contradiction what’s actually in the bill, ie., The Patriot Act which is Constitutionally illegal.

    I’m not arguing against UBI in and of itself. What I’m saying is we won’t get the product we’re sold. It’s a bait and switch game, just like Obama Care. What I think we’ll end up with is basically those at poverty level will be pulled up to a better standard, the rest of us will be pulled down, and the well paying jobs will go to the children of the wealthy who can afford college.

    And then the social polarization will be about how everyone got screwed by the poor who now have it so good while ignoring that UBI as it should have been got castrated instead. As usual, the powerful won’t be held accountable.
     
  7. enjoypolo

    enjoypolo Well-Known Member

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    Very much so. I think its perceptive to use the precautionary principle especially when dealing with politics.

    One of the biggest worry for me, is like you said, the wolves in sheep’s clothing will try to sell us a tasty-smelling pumpkin pie, while sneaking poison hemlock in it, as they so often do.
    For instance selling the people a “universal” basic income that retards, rather than develops society and the economy. French (unelected) president Macron was recently proposing just such a plan. Thank God it was obvious enough that no-one drank the kool aid.

    An example would be a conditional income (aka Welfare) where only certain people would have access to as you pointed out. Which defeats the whole purpose of UBI in the first place.
    Another example would be lowering the UBI amount too low, that its not enough to make real changes ($500 vs $1,000 UBI. Big difference.)

    My biggest shift in thinking regarding UBI’s effectiveness is this: Mindset.
    I don’t care how much you get, if your mindset is stuck to reductionism, materialist and competiton/survival-of-the-fittest perception, that money will do no good to you, nor the community, nor the environment.

    I think the real game-changer is a shift in people’s perception of their place on this Planet.
    What are we here for? Are we really distinct from Nature as we’ve been conditioned to think?
    Or are we all playing a part in this cosmic play, where real added-value comes from synergy and working with, rather than against the people/environment.

    And economically, that means shifting from linear “savage”-materialistic capitalism production models to regenerative holistic capitalism, one where free-market still exists but works within a synergistic framework of putting people and environment before profits, where co-operation instead of competition is the rule of the game, so that we can live off the interests of Nature’s bounty.
    It seems cliché or maybe even impossible to achieve, but actually, more and more people are already involved in this new “underground” economy (the other thread on Blue Economy is a testament to this).

    Once, and only once, we’ll have achieved this degree of shift in perception, where people would find motivation to collaborate, then I believe we can propose a UBI-like framework to kickstart the creativity process, not as an end, but as a “bridge” to get from here to there.

    That’s my two-cents and reflection on UBI. I used to be gung-ho about it, thinking the changes in perception will follow upon implementation. I was wrong.
    Having said that, my views on the logistics and feasibility remain unchanged. That’s probably the least of the concerns for this program. I get my tax returns every year by direct deposit on my bank, I don’t see why a similar automated system cant be implemented.

    As for the greenbacks, I like Yang’s idea of using savings made from cutting welfare bureaucracy costs, as well as imposing a value-added tax on GAFAs (Google-Apple-Facebook-Amazons) that not only routinely evade paying local taxes, but also are the ones profiting the most from automation and AI.
    I would suggest further, by taxing weapons manufacturers, and energy sector that’s crippling Earth ecology, to would be funnelled towards a UBI. If you really wanna be bold, fund the UBI with non-fiat, government issued greenbacks and saying no to Federal Reserve private debt money.
    Where there is will, there is a way.
     
    #107 enjoypolo, Jul 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
    1 person likes this.
  8. rjens57

    rjens57 New Member

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    Short of a full out revolution/uprising, perhaps the way to get from here to there is to create pockets of communities everywhere that practice the values of putting people and environment before profits. These communities have to be role models for everyone else to see that their way of living is of higher quality. We can use the law of attraction. It’s a tall order to shift the mindset from our me/mine competitive culture that is breeding an increased population of people with narcissistic personality disorder to one of cooperation and collaboration. But it’s possible if enough passionate, like minded people can be brought together to deliberately launch such a movement.

    We saw something like this happen with the communes of the sixties. It would be interesting to research that to see what worked and what didn’t and use those lessons in rebuilding our lost communities.
     
    1 person likes this.