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7 Questions for UBI Proponents

Discussion in 'Wild Card Forum' started by hisich, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. enjoypolo

    enjoypolo Well-Known Member

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    You're too kind Shamangineer. I wouldn't have had the patience to do it :rolleyes:
    *Claps*
     
  2. shamangineer

    shamangineer Well-Known Member

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    I'm guessing it won't be long before I get one of these:
    [​IMG]
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. hisich

    hisich Member

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    Not an answer.


    So truly destitute people from the 3rd World would be turned back at the border I guess?



    So you want to bring back Debtor's Prisons--fantastic!



    Not an answer.



    Not an answer.



    Not an answer.




    You admit your hypocrisy...I appreciate the honesty. As w/most bleeding-heart types you're only generous w/OPM.
     
  4. hisich

    hisich Member

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    Well, it doesn't take much effort to answer straight-forward Q's...which Shamangineer really didn't even accomplish.
     
  5. hisich

    hisich Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  6. hisich

    hisich Member

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  7. shamangineer

    shamangineer Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  8. shamangineer

    shamangineer Well-Known Member

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  9. hisich

    hisich Member

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    You literally support Debtor's Prisons...

    [​IMG]
     
  10. hisich

    hisich Member

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    Promoting UBI & Medicare-for-all in 2019 is about as un-edgy as one can get...

    [​IMG]
     
  11. shamangineer

    shamangineer Well-Known Member

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    A debtor's prison is for people who are unable to pay debt where their stay is tied to paying off the debt through manual labor. People who don't pay taxes go to regular prison or get a refund depending on if they can afford a good accountant and lawyer fees to secure loopholes.
     
  12. hisich

    hisich Member

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    [​IMG]


    LMFAO...man you're dishonest! You tried pulling the same BS by asserting that a centrally-run welfare program was an example of "democratic decentralization"! You LITERALLY want people to be put in prison for not paying their tax debts...I guess you're relying on the Nazi logic of "The Holocaust wasn't murder because it was legal & done by the govt"...


    Who would've guessed that the exciting, new, revolutionary idea of UBI clowns was to bring back Debtor's Prisons!!!


    [​IMG]
     
  13. hisich

    hisich Member

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  14. shamangineer

    shamangineer Well-Known Member

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  15. hisich

    hisich Member

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  16. shamangineer

    shamangineer Well-Known Member

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  17. hisich

    hisich Member

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    What I've taken away from our convos about this insane idea:

    1. You want the Ruling Class to be 100% in control of our economic lives.
    2. You want the Ruling Class to have the power to throw people into Debtor's Prisons (which you dishonestly refuse to acknowledge are, indeed, Debtor's Prisons) if they refuse to comply.
    3. The many trillion$ in existing unfunded liabilities (USA)--according to you--have either magically disappeared or are somehow irrelevant.

    You failed to answer most of my 7 very straight-forward questions.

    In some circumstances, like Alaska where a tiny population hit the lotto by sitting on large oil deposits, I could see a version of UBI working for a while. Places like Canada and Australia also come to mind. Other places that aren't blessed w/such an imbalance between natural-resources VS population density or which haven't had the benefit of priorly very free-markets (like the West), it has no chance of working.

    Enough for EVERYONE to get a significant allowance from their Rulers? After the oil (or other natural resources) run out or are replaced? After the populace becomes too lazy to be bothered w/maintaining the infrastructure, economy, and borders (look at Europe now, being invaded by hostile immigrants who also want some 'free' shit)? Sounds like a disaster in the making to me.

    The extreme short-sightedness, arrogance (wanting to mass-experiment on humanity w/this scheme), naiveté (failing to see the danger of handing this much power to the Ruling Class) & misunderstanding of human-nature on the part of Ubistas is remarkable.
     
  18. shamangineer

    shamangineer Well-Known Member

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    1.The ruling class meaning a bunch of mealy-mouthed politicians with pockets full of corporate donations? Fuck that!

    In a properly operating democracy, the people are the ruling class, and yes I want the people to have control of their economic lives.

    2. This isn't even a real argument. Tax isn't debt.

    3. Ugh. See below:
    "When there is a difference between the total amount of benefits owed to ALL current employees & retirees and the value of the financial assets the pension plan manages, then there is an “unfunded liability.” This means that at a specific point in time, the pension plan does not have the full amount of money it will need to pay out ALL of the retirement benefits it will owe in the future to ALL of its current and former employees. But the system never needs all that money at one time. Here’s how it really works.

    An employee working today who will retire and begin collecting her pension benefit in twenty years won’t collect her entire benefit all at once. She will receive her pension benefit paid out in monthly installments over the course of her retirement, which could be another twenty years. So, for our public employee working today, the pension plan in which she participates has twenty years to earn investment returns on the contributions to her pension and may then have another twenty years over which to pay out those benefits. If the pension fund today only has 85 percent of what it will owe her, that does not mean there is a pension crisis because the fund has a long time to earn investment returns and then pay out its obligations. Those pension critics wailing about unfunded liabilities either don’t understand or are being intentionally misleading about this very basic fact.

    The reality of financial markets means that as the value of financial assets goes up and down, a pension plan can be more or less well-funded at a certain point in time. Some states, like Wisconsin, that do have fully funded pension plans have specifically designed their pension plans with certain features to guarantee that the plan remains fully funded. Other plans, like those in New York and North Carolina, are funded somewhere between 90 and 100 percent, meaning they may not currently have every dollar they will ever owe, but they are pretty close. Some states, like Illinois and New Jersey, do have real, legitimate problems with their public pension plans, but those problems are not caused by the nature of defined benefit pensions themselves. They are directly caused by political malfeasance, when governors and state legislatures- of both political parties- have neglected their pension obligations, often for decades."
    https://protectpensions.org/2017/07/17/pension-crisis-myth-part-two/
     
  19. hisich

    hisich Member

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    1. There are only individuals, not "people", so democracy--even in a theoretically "properly operating democracy" (which just means an authoritarian system which imposes YOUR ideas on everyone else!)--is really just a never-ending war of everyone VS everyone competing for the Ring Of Power.

    2. You want to toss people in cages for not paying their tax debts/bills. I don't know that it gets more greedy than wanting to imprison people over money.

    3. So what we saw happen to Detroit (or the USSR) was just a figment of the imagination and the current official Nat'l Debt (app. $23 TRILLION) is also imaginary? Not "if", but WHEN we see Counties, Cities, Towns, States and eventually the Federal Govt. fall apart (really, we're ALREADY in a slow-motion collapse--esp. big cities run by Democrats/'Progressives' like you!) because of inability to pay off fiscal obligations/liabilities, I wonder what your take will be...?
     
  20. shamangineer

    shamangineer Well-Known Member

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